|
The TND Armoured Fighting Vehicle Forum :: The Best IFV in the world. |
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Best IFV in the world..
22-04-2010 07:16:59
|
|
|
| Admin_2ndTankie |
|
| Challenger 2 |
 |
Joined: 07-03-2010 22:18:53
Posts: 93
Location: |
|
|
|
|
|
As much as i like the roar and speed of the British warrior and the rapid firing Bushmaster on the Bradley my top IVF still goes to the BMP3..
Packing a 100mm gun twinned with a 30mm Automatic ! Twin mounted 7.62mm machine guns in the hull and the addition of an ATGM on the turret roof... This will seriously ruin your day....
3X Crew and 7 Grunty pooh's in the back......
OTT ? I think so... but its certainly top in my mind :) |
IP Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
24-04-2010 16:06:27
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
24-04-2010 18:02:04
|
|
|
| Admin_2ndTankie |
|
|
| Challenger 2 |
|
Joined: 07-03-2010 22:18:53
Posts: 93
Location: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well the early BMP's had the fuel tanks mounted on the back doors and suffered alot from "cooking off" also due to the round stowage.
The Rarden just doesn't pack the punch to be a AT weapon and with no ATGM capability the Warrior is massively under equipped. The Bradley's with TOW and the Linebackers with AA have the direct attack means to take on a tank on first contact. I rate the 25mm bushy with its rate of fire over any 30 year old Rarden. |
|
IP Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
25-04-2010 09:35:54
|
|
|
| Bruce71 |
|
| Warrant Officer Class 2 |
 |
Joined: 03-02-2010 23:35:31
Posts: 145
Location: My house on planet Earth |
|
|
|
|
|
|
OK, fair point about the 30 year old Rarden.
I do however still have doubts about the actual usefullness of the Bradley's TOW missiles.
First off the crew have to expose themselves to reload the launchers, secondly, is there any real need for it to have TOW in the first place, when it fights alongside the Abrams M.B.T? Third, as soon as it fires its TOW, it immediately becomes the prime target for enemy infantry, making the troops inside it vulnerable.
In my opinion IFVs, and I include the BMP and Warrior when I say this, have become victims of their own success. By putting so much firepower on them, they have exposed the Infantry inside them to more danger than necessary, because by being so heavily armed, they make themselves the prime focus of the enemy's efforts to eliminate them. |
|
IP Logged
|
|
I build models, therefore I am. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
25-04-2010 14:27:23
|
|
|
| M1A2AbramsV2SEP |
|
| Corporal |
 |
Joined: 06-02-2010 01:31:17
Posts: 49
Location: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
In the Gulf War the M2A2 Actually scored more Tank kills than the M1A1 Abrams. And i do believe that the TOW is very much necessary because if a large scale war you can bet that a Bradley will find itself having to fight other tanks. Also it may become a target for enemy infantry but don't forget there will be other Bradley's supporting it, not to mention the 6 man infantry squad that it carries along will cover the Bradley. |
|
IP Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
26-04-2010 17:56:16
|
|
|
| Bruce71 |
|
|
| Warrant Officer Class 2 |
|
Joined: 03-02-2010 23:35:31
Posts: 145
Location: My house on planet Earth |
|
|
|
|
|
|
OK, fair enough, but I do have a serious question. Now I don't want to prolong any arguments here, because clearly I dont know as much as serving tank crew. On the 7th April 2003 during the second of 3rd Infantry Division (Mechanised)'s famous 'Thunder Runs' into baghdad, a mixed unit of Bradleys and engineer vehicles were very nearly overwhelmed at 'Objective Curly' the first Clover Leaf Junction on Highway 8, the main Northbound route into Baghdad, at the same time, a unit of Bradleys and Abrams faced a similar situation at 'Objective Moe' further north at the 3rd Clover Leaf Junction. My question is simply this; What went wrong? Why did the Bradleys and Abrams have so much difficulty fighting against mainly AK47 and RPG armed dismounted infantry/insurgents?
BTW my source of information is David Zucchino's book, 'Thunder Run', a book I'd very much recommend to anyone. |
|
IP Logged
|
|
Last Edited On: 26-04-2010 17:57:51 By Bruce71 for the Reason |
|
I build models, therefore I am. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
28-04-2010 23:20:26
|
|
|
| M1A2AbramsV2SEP |
|
|
| Corporal |
|
Joined: 06-02-2010 01:31:17
Posts: 49
Location: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm not entirely sure, but I'll be sure to look into and share any information i can find, but more than likely this was the peak of the resistance with the first U.S. troops going into Baghdad and Insurgents used the opportunity to attack and ambush as much of the American for as they could. |
|
IP Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
29-04-2010 12:21:19
|
|
|
| Admin_2ndTankie |
|
|
| Challenger 2 |
|
Joined: 07-03-2010 22:18:53
Posts: 93
Location: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think like with all guerrilla fighting the outcome of a battle is not always clear, And much can be said about the fighting in Op TELIC (Iraqi freedom) When The reported RPG gunners or rogue militia fighters presented them selves and fought the Coalition they were dealt with swiftly, However for an Armoured advance to work and be successful you need to have your supply routes and tracks clear from danger. Not always achievable with no definitive enemy.
With no set battle lines or uniformed enemy an advance can seem slow or even unsuccessful.
I don’t believe you can to heavily arm an APC/IFV after all it is there to protect its dismounts and pack enough punch so that if it does indeed contact a Tank it can either impart an M/F Kill and with draw safley. And then there is the grunty pooh's in the back, today’s modern ATGM's are man portable and devastatingly powerful. |
|
IP Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
30-04-2010 09:18:50
|
|
|
| Bruce71 |
|
|
| Warrant Officer Class 2 |
|
Joined: 03-02-2010 23:35:31
Posts: 145
Location: My house on planet Earth |
|
|
|
|
|
|
You make a good point about the supply routes. When 3rd infantry division reached downtown baghdad and settled in for the night (they were originally only supposed to go in, make a lot of noise, then withdraw) they called in their supply column, on their way in, almost inevitably, the supply column was ambushed, fortunately, they only lost 5 vehicles.
I'd be very much interested in hearing from both of you on your thoughts about using armour in an urban environment. Do the 'TUSK' and 'Street Fighter' upgrades for Abrams and Challenger 2 go far enough? Or will using armour in urban terrain always be extremely dangerous?
One final question; Are there any reliable casualty figures for the Bradleys and Abrams in Iraqi Freedom? We've probably all heard about the Abrams tank 'Cojone Eh' getting hit in the rear engine grill and catching fire, it made international headlines. But what about the Bradleys? Were any damaged or destroyed? Or is it really THAT good? Maybe a Bradley getting hit just doesn't make as big a news story as an Abrams getting hit and thats why I don't recall hearing about any?
By the way, I'm very much enjoying this discussion, its not every day you get to talk with real 'tankies', instead of those endless debates among so called 'Armchair Experts' on some of those other site's forums!! |
|
IP Logged
|
|
I build models, therefore I am. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
03-05-2010 23:33:03
|
|
|
| M1A2AbramsV2SEP |
|
|
| Corporal |
|
Joined: 06-02-2010 01:31:17
Posts: 49
Location: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Using Armor in an urban environment will always be risky. The Situational awareness will always be at a minimum (although we're improving on that) and it will always be easier to exploit armors weakness. However, Armor has proven to be extremely effective in urban settings such as Iraq, and despite never being designed for such roles and environments M1s and Chally 2s proved their flexibility taking both having taken modern ATM missiles threats (1 RPG-29 against the Challenger 2 and 3 RPG-29 attacks against M1s) and massive IEDs. But still as mentioned earlier the bad guys found weakness and exploited them. But from what i hear TUSK and street fighter do the job.
And about the casualty figures nothing to concrete but what is know is at least 55 Bradleys and 80 M1s (though atleast 63 have been returned to the fleet). |
|
IP Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
05-05-2010 16:02:02
|
|
|
| Admin_2ndTankie |
|
|
| Challenger 2 |
|
Joined: 07-03-2010 22:18:53
Posts: 93
Location: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
That may seem like a high number of tanks to be overhauled back to the US, But imagine how much more fighting the Abrams have done.. The American tactics favour lots of armour and firepower.. where as for some gay "hearts and minds" reason we use only just enough ! or at times make do with to little.
Armour can work in urban environments providing it has adequate Infantry support.. As much as it pains me to say so... we need them as much as they need us :( |
|
IP Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
06-05-2010 10:05:41
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
17-05-2010 18:12:54
|
|
|
| VickersIndependent |
|
| Lance Corporal |
 |
Joined: 09-05-2010 18:09:35
Posts: 31
Location: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well you know Turkey has mounted the complete turret of the BMP-3 onto the hull of an M113 AIFV. By itself the M113 AIFV probably sports superior armour protection and a larger and more comfortable crew compartment.
http://www(dot)combatreform(dot)org/m113gavinwithbmp3turret2(dot)jpg
This M113 doesn't have ERA for the moment although a complete package could be built with little time as an example of a non-AIFV with ERA exists in the IDF. It's called the Classical and not only sports ERA but passive composites as well. |
|
IP Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
20-05-2010 00:03:38
|
|
|
| M1A2AbramsV2SEP |
|
|
| Corporal |
|
Joined: 06-02-2010 01:31:17
Posts: 49
Location: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Interesting concept I'll defiantly look into more when i get some time. Although for Armor protection I'm going to have to side with the BMP-3. Although I'm somewhat surprised that Turkey hasn't gone for the K-21 |
|
IP Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
21-05-2010 13:41:01
|
|
|
| Bruce71 |
|
|
| Warrant Officer Class 2 |
|
Joined: 03-02-2010 23:35:31
Posts: 145
Location: My house on planet Earth |
|
|
|
|
|
|
How good are the new(ish) add-on armour packages that are fitted to the bulldog and warrior? I cant recall off hand what the armour package is called, but it looks like a series of wedges going down the sides of the vehicles (please excuse my ignorance, I tried researching it online, but couldn't find any names for it!). Also, just how effective is bar/slat armour against RPGs? Is it better than the ball and chains on the back of Israeli Merkava turrets?
I've attached a picture of Bulldog with the add-on armour fitted
|
|
IP Logged
|
|
I build models, therefore I am. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Re:Best IFV in the world..
21-05-2010 17:58:14
|
|
|
| M1A2AbramsV2SEP |
|
|
| Corporal |
|
Joined: 06-02-2010 01:31:17
Posts: 49
Location: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
[Bruce71 21-05-2010 13:41:01]:
How good are the new(ish) add-on armour packages that are fitted to the bulldog and warrior? I cant recall off hand what the armour package is called, but it looks like a series of wedges going down the sides of the vehicles (please excuse my ignorance, I tried researching it online, but couldn't find any names for it!). Also, just how effective is bar/slat armour against RPGs? Is it better than the ball and chains on the back of Israeli Merkava turrets?
I've attached a picture of Bulldog with the add-on armour fitted
About the Warrior I'm not to sure about, but anyways that attached pick you included was a new variant of bulldog the FV430 MK3 Apart from the ERA and applique armor (which is the wedges going down the side) it also received a new Engine and Transmission greatly improving its mobility and it's protection is now said to be equivalent to that of the Warrior.
|
|
IP Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
21-05-2010 19:32:23
|
|
|
| VickersIndependent |
|
|
| Lance Corporal |
|
Joined: 09-05-2010 18:09:35
Posts: 31
Location: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Both the slat/bar armour and the ball and chain skirt on Merkava do the same thing,predetonate RPGs before contact with the tank's hull armour. The ball and chain skirts must've been working well as since its introduction in the 80s it hasn't changed reall at all. As for the Bulldog with applique armour it lookes like those wedges are ERA(Explosive Reactive Armour.) Here's an example of an Israeli M113 with an armour package very similar.
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/armored_personnel_carriers/m-113/l-vas_2.jpg |
|
IP Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
22-05-2010 16:30:18
|
|
|
| Admin_2ndTankie |
|
|
| Challenger 2 |
|
Joined: 07-03-2010 22:18:53
Posts: 93
Location: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
The Buldog/Warrior/CRARRV armour upgrade packages are very good, Israeli ERA with a good proven record :) |
|
IP Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
04-06-2010 20:10:58
|
|
|
| VickersIndependent |
|
|
| Lance Corporal |
|
Joined: 09-05-2010 18:09:35
Posts: 31
Location: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I've found an AFV that is nearly entirely immune to all the BMP-3s weapons. It called the Achzarit Hebrew for (Cruel Woman),and its built off the T-55 hull. It's manuafacturers have claimed that this machine can take multiple 125mm APDSFS shells to its frontal arc without penitration. Given that 14 tonnes of weight are in the addition of advanced applique armour this gives some idea as to the high level of protection. Early models are armed only with machine guns due to budget contraints which also happened to only provide for a 650hp engine based off the M109 which is already in service with the IDF. However later models such as the Achzarit Mark 3 are real beasts. They mount 1,200HP engines with 30mm auto-cannon turret which can chew up BMPs. |
|
IP Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Subject :Re:Best IFV in the world..
04-06-2010 20:11:07
|
|
|
| VickersIndependent |
|
|
| Lance Corporal |
|
Joined: 09-05-2010 18:09:35
Posts: 31
Location: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I've found an AFV that is nearly entirely immune to all the BMP-3s weapons. It called the Achzarit Hebrew for (Cruel Woman),and its built off the T-55 hull. It's manuafacturers have claimed that this machine can take multiple 125mm APDSFS shells to its frontal arc without penitration. Given that 14 tonnes of weight are in the addition of advanced applique armour this gives some idea as to the high level of protection. Early models are armed only with machine guns due to budget contraints which also happened to only provide for a 650hp engine based off the M109 which is already in service with the IDF. However later models such as the Achzarit Mark 3 are real beasts. They mount 1,200HP engines with 30mm auto-cannon turret which can chew up BMPs. |
|
IP Logged
|
|
|
|
|
